@aaron society pushes humans to lie, cheat, and steal. many companies do not lie, probably *most* companies. please take the blanket anti-company line elsewhere and criticize *these specific half-dozen* companies directly instead of criticizing the millions of companies in the world as one.

@sneak Yes, it is our trade-based society that pushes humans to lie, cheat and steal, so I do not want to blame any company or human - I put the blame on trade.
With my first statement (and yes I know that was a bit exaggerated) I just wanted to say that one should always be critical if any company claims anything, as they are forced to put profit first because of our trade-based society.
But there are many people out there who work on honest goods/services: www.directory.trade-free.org/ and I want to appreciate the work of all volunteers out there. I'm using a linux operating system and I am amazed everyday by the work that millions of people put into that!

@aaron trade is a human desire and you can't blame "trade" for things humans decide to do. trade improves human lives vastly and it's not a bad thing and it doesn't push anyone to lie, cheat, or steal - this is a fallacy pushed by anticapitalists. you should be critical of any *human* claiming anything, because companies cannot speak or make claims - only human beings can.

@sneak I agree that trade was a necessary tool for human societies to develop and improve, however we should also take into account the negative aspects that came with it. The environment gets exploited, people's values are completely distorted (they are made to mindless consumers) and whoever controls the trade has a lot of power over others and can force them to be enslaved (kings and queens + merchants in the past - the super rich nowadays).
Plus, trade makes no sense anymore as it creates most problems we as a human species face and it is an obsolete tool to create the abundance that we have on this planet. It perpetuates this endless consumption so that we create mountains of waste.

Companies are a human invention and a company without humans doesn't exist. So of course if Facebook claims "the future is private" there are humans behind that lie.

@aaron trade doesn't make people consumers. consuming doesn't make people mindless. you've got your cause and effect all mixed up.

*nod*, the market doesn't reward the most honest, the most competent, the most hard-working. like nature, it seems to reward the best hacks, which quite often amount to cheating.
corporation ladders select for that as well, but with a twist: not necessarily those who come up with the best hacks, but those who come up with the hacks that best serve the corporation

@sneak @aaron If I trade bananas for money (like having a banana shop), I can't afford to tell people to go to the shop next door because they have better and cheaper bananas. So my situation, trading this for that, will always influence my decisions. So I will probably lie that my bananas are the best and cheapest, despite I knowing this is not true. I have to eat, you know....

Apple also has to pay its employees, some taxes, offices, rents, their CEO's and so forth. We cannot be naive to think that this entanglement is not highly influential in a negative manner.

@tio @aaron or you can just lower the price of your bananas instead of lying. it's not the act of being in business that induces people to lie.

@sneak @aaron Lowering the prices makes me make less money, and thus is a loss for me. I have to pay rent, for food, and a lot more to survive in this system. This is a very tough challenge to navigate. We should, at least, recognize this powerful influence. Some may resist it, but many may not. It is hard, let's be honest.

@tio @aaron you've constructed a fictional scenario to bolster your argument.

it's not hard to be honest in business and most people who are dishonest in business go out of business.

customers are not stupid

@sneak @aaron This is not a fictional story at all. If you lower the prices of whatever you sell, then you lose money. As simple as that. If you pay your fair taxes, you also lose. Why is Apple paying almost no taxes in USA and moves its headquarters/offices to offshore tax heavens? Apple alongside most big companies that can afford such taxheavens. I have written books where I showcase real examples, but the thousands - www.tromsite.com/books/ . So yah, I wish this was fictional.

most people who are dishonest in business go out of business

Maybe you meant to say "most people who are HONEST in business go out of business"? You mean most businesses are honest? Facebook? Amazon? Microsoft? Apple? The Supermarket in your area?

@tio @aaron that is literally an objectively false statement. reducing revenue is not the same as losing money unless your margin is zero and if your margin is zero you wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

@sneak @aaron If I sell bananas for 2 Euros a kilo, then reduce that to 1 Euros per kilo, of course I lose money. I still have the same expenses (employees, rent, import or bananas, etc.), so now I have a lot less money to joggle with.