https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html

rms himself writes (in (3)) about why the AGPL is nonfree.

@sneak AGPL doesn’t restrict you from that.

@arh number 3 - "when you wish". i may wish to make no copies of my modified server software, and never distribute them. AGPL prevents this.

@sneak yeah you have a point. I’ll ask RMS and FSF about this.

@arh they redefined "user" to be the person making the http requests and not the person, you know, who actually edited and is running the software on the computers they own, because they're anti-capitalists who don't believe in the concept of private property when it comes to information. they have a stock retort for when they are accused of this which does not actually refute the issue.

they redefined “user” to be the person making the http requests and not the person, you know, who actually edited and is running the software on the computers they own

Say if I borrow your machine, @sneak, and use the software on it, who will be the user, you or me? What software does is transforming data from one form to the other, which makes usage the transformation of data and user the one giving the input and taking the output (in various format). The additional clauses of AGPL (compared to GPL) close the loop hole of SaaSS. Who at which end of e.g. the HTTP requests is not the deal breaker, but who actually uses the software, to be provided as a service or not.

they’re anti-capitalists

The entire concept of software freedom, including copyleft, in contrary to popular belief, is pro-capitalism, by facilitating a free market and competition. Copyright, on the other hand, is about monopolistic power and as anti-capitalism as possible, but I was told that it’s supposed to encourage creativity so

[they] don’t believe in the concept of private property when it comes to information

I can see your confusion here. Back to the hypothetical scenario, per private property rights alone nothing would prevent me from make an exact copy of your machine when I borrow it and the same for the software. The reason an user of a SaaSS cannot do so is not because private property, but copyright.

I hope this clarifies it for you as well, @arh

@cnx @arh

no, this is the whole motte-and-bailey argument that FSF anticapitalist zealots like to toss out whenever they are called out on their ideology that extends past software.

it's a violation of my privacy to demand that i publish files from my own server simply because i ran "systemctl start httpd". there is no "application service provider loophole", it's a feature not a bug.

the AGPL is nonfree.

@sneak, you are not demanded to publish files from your server because you ran httpd. Per AGPL, users have the right to study/modify/redistribute the software they use. If no one uses the software running on your server, i.e. either no one interacts with it or that the server does not process data on behalf of anyone (in case you use httpd only to for static content, assuming httpd was under AGPL), modifications made to AGPL’ed software need not be disclosed upon requests.

@cnx you seem to think that my difference of opinion about the AGPL stems from my misunderstanding it.

nothing you've sent me is something i didn't know.

i'm talking about the so-called "ASP loophole", and the fact that AGPL software is nonfree because you are forced to make public private modifications that are executed only on your *own* hardware if those algorithms are used remotely by customers over the network.

@sneak @cnx GPL is nonfree because you are forced to make public private modifications that were made on your *own* hardware if those algorithms are used by customers you only gave the resulting binary to.

When you provide a remote interface to your program, then any remote user will also become the user of your program. But those remote users do not have the same freedoms as defined by rms which is a problem that agpl attempts to solve - it treats all that send commands to the software, whether by hand or network, as equal.

@asterope @cnx nah the user is the person running the software to operate their service business.

software is not a service. software is software and a service is a service. *customers* not having access to the software backing a service is not an abridgment of freedom, any more than customers not being allowed in the kitchen of a restaurant.

you appear to reject the fundamental premise of the free software movement, that the *user* is entitled to control their *own* computing. you want it with a twist: that the *operator* be entitled to control everyone else's computing. those are not the same. you're entitled to your opinions and agendas, of course, but that's not what the free software movement is about.

@lxo the operator of a business uses software to conduct that business and is the user of the software. when you use SaaS you aren't a software user, you're just handing off your data for someone else to use software to provide you with service. it's the difference between cooking and going to a restaurant.

SaaS is about as confusing as cloud and IP, it jumbles too many different kinds of services under the same umbrella. that's why we who care about users' software freedoms use terms that distinguish between services in which the software running on a server performs the operator's computing (the case you seem to care about), those in which the software performs the remote client's computing (the SaaSS case that AGPL addresses) and those in which it performs multi-party computing (publishing, communication).
maybe lowering the abstraction level would help. instead of reasoning in terms of "the service is my computing!", which is a perfectly fine stance to take in some cases but not in others, we should look into the specifics of some kinds of services and see what follows from that?

@lxo a zealot is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject

you're forgetting about the freedoms of the most important users

your confession is appreciated ;-p
to me, the most important users are those whose computing is being performed. agree/disagree?

@lxo no the most important users are the ones who are being economically productive and making the world better and more efficient for others. end users don't matter much in the scheme of things. i'd rather have 5 more steve jobs' than 5x the number of iphone users as an available market.